Monk MinMax thread by mean liar

[Azalin]

This is a guide to monk creation. Basically, its a collection of personal opinions on how to make a good monk, complied and edited from posts I've made on the subject. Post any questions and I'll edit and respond as appropriate.

This guide should be totally v3.5 compliant and up-to-date as of the publishing of Complete Warrior. Several references are made to various supplements: Players Handbook (PHB), Monster Manual (MM), Book of Exalted Deeds (BoED), Oriental Adventures (OA), Sword and Fist (SaF), Arms and Equipment (AaE), Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS), Dragonlance Campaign Setting (DLCS), Underdark (UD), Complete Warrior (CW), Miniatures Handbook (MH).

SECTIONS --
Introduction
Holistic Description of Monk Minmax
Races
Attributes
Feats
On Multiclassing
Items
Vow of Poverty
Some Examples
Questions and Answers

...

INTRODUCTION

Monks are an intermediate class, having the same relationship to the fighting classes as the Bard does to spellcasters. Noting that no fighting class wants to ever be compared to a Bard, it is safe to assume that a Monk is weak and needs lots of help to keep pace with his more brawny and skilled companions. The role of this guide is to assist in planning a monk's feats in order to maintain a maximum capability and to minimize the various weaknesses of the monk class.

...

HOLISTIC DESCRIPTION OF MONK MINMAX

Monks require planning - they have few feats to use and are generally expected to perform well in combat to some degree. Unlike a Fighter who can 'waste' a feat or two, the Monk has to be extremely careful about what to do with those valuable and too-limited feat choices.

First, recognize the limitations of your statistics. With moderate to good stats, you'll be best served taking several related feats with a few non-synergistic side feats to maintain versatility. With great stats, you can probably take two feat trees and allow your stats to make up for the depth you'd otherwise have by concentrating on only a single specialization.

Second, don't operate alone. You're not built to accept a lot of punishment, and will generally have a low AC and only moderate HP total. If you're in melee, stay close to the fighter-types and hope that they absorb the majority of the attacks. If you have a rogue in the party, encourage him to stick close enough to employ his sneak attacks against opponents you happen to Stun.

POINTS WORTH MENTIONING
Be sure that you discuss your Monk build with your GM prior to gametime. In OA, you can swap out any of the level 1, 2, and 6 feats, but it was written when v3.0 had no swapping. With the v3.5 monk rules, there's some question in my mind whether the OA feat swapping remains valid in all games. In any case, ask first: building a monk usually requires some planning, and you don't want to be surprised by a misunderstanding at level 9.

It is unclear in v3.5 how or if the Monk's Flurry ability can be increased by taking levels of Monk-based PrCs (Red Avenger, Shintao Monk, Ninja of the Crescent Moon). I assume that if the v3.0 class adds to Monk UBAB, then the v3.5 version of the class would add to Monk levels to determine the capability of your Flurry. You need to clear this ambiguity with your GM before embarking on any multiclassing with your monk.

...

RACES

Monks benefit from lots of Feats, high STR, high CON, and being Large size. Little else helps, though a good DEX bonus is fine to have (though not at the expense of CON!).

This makes good race choices for Monks rather clear: Human, Dwarf, and Half Orc from the base races. Dependent on DM and setting, these other races make for great Monks: (Forgotten Realms) Wood Elves, (Savage Species) Half Ogres, and (Krynn) Minotaurs.

The other races are suboptimal choices, and therefore won't really be dealt with in this guide.

In general, there are few ECL races worth taking as a Monk. Most Monk abilities are level-dependent (as opposed to Fighters, who only gain a feats and BAB rather than abilities with new levels), meaning that maintaining the highest level possible is your goal. Githzerai (ECL +2) give great benefits, but the +2 ECL makes me wary. Monks have low survivability at low levels - high ECL Monks are best played as characters joining at a high level already, rather than starting at level 1.

The exception that defines the rule is that as the level of the party increases, ECL races become more attractive. A 25th level (starting) campaign is much easier to get through as a 22nd level Monk Lycanthrope than it would be to survive levels 1-5 as such a character. Basically, I wouldn't touch an ECL greater than +1 unless you were absolutely assured of being in a high level game.

...

[Azalin]

ATTRIBUTES

The more, the merrier. All classes benefit from having high stats, but the monk benefits more than most. A high WIS, STR, DEX, and CON would each easily find a nice home with a monk. Its difficult to identify which stat is 'most important', but identifying what monk niches you wish to occupy should help in the process.

First, you're going to want to hit in combat. This means either having a high STR, a high DEX (with Combat Finesse), or high WIS (with Combat Insight from the BoED). I personally recommend a high STR, as the damage bonus is nice as well. However, if you are lacking in a large spread of high stats and want to be a Monk, STR should be the first stat to be ignored.

With high stats, I would prioritize them: STR, WIS/CON, DEX.
With moderate to good stats, I would prioritize them: WIS, DEX, CON, STR.

The idea of the high stat prioritization is first and foremost to do a lot of damage consistently (and saving a feat that would otherwise be Weapon Finesse). Second, you want a good AC and Stun Attack DC, but also a good load of HPs. This is a personal decision and I would rank these needs equally.

I personally would not attempt to play a monk with moderate to good stats. It is a challenge, and I prefer to dominate rather than survive. With moderate to good stats and an interest in playing a monk I would recommend looking at being a Sacred Fist (from Defenders of the Faith) - it requires much less by way of stats (specifically, DEX).

...

FEATS

This is really where the Monk comes to the fore. With good feat choices you can save an otherwise weakling wannabe from the scrapheap of useless and/or dead PCs, where a lot of monks can end up if they're not careful.

Bonus Feats: Take Stunning Attack at 1st level. Its too useful and too difficult to get later to forego now. If you want Improved Grapple, take it as a general feat choice. At 2nd level, take Combat Reflexes. Its a prereq for a lot of good feats, whereas Deflect Arrows should only be taken in specific instances (such as a character that intends on using Grappling Block). At 6th level, your choice depends on your stats. A high STR character should take Improved Trip - its useful and should give you the upper hand in dealing with some humanoids. Without a high STR, you're not going to Trip very well and therefore Improved Disarm should be taken, if only as a default.

General Feats: What do you want to do with your Monk? Personally, I enjoy adding to the Monk's capabilities that are inherent in the class, building on strengths, rather than attempting to develop new abilities.

mean_liar's personal favorite monk Feat choices: Improved Natural Attack (MM), Ability Focus (MM), Pain Touch (CW). Each of these feats adds to the Monk's strongest combat abilities - Flurries generate a lot of hits, so anything that increases your damage is exponentially useful. Stun Attacks can be performed as part of these attacks, and therefore anything that increases the use of Stuns is a good thing. The best thing is that these feats can be taken relatively early and therefore you get a lot of mileage out of them.

a little more on Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strikes are considered natural attacks for the purposes of deriving effects and bonuses (as per Unarmed Strike class feature description of the Monk core class), and Improved Natural Attack increases the damage of a Natural Attack (in this case, your unarmed strike). Some DMs may not allow this (they're wrong), so ask first.

On Grapples: They stink. In general. Imp Grapple, Choke Hold, and Earth's Embrace are okay, but in using them you fail to threaten other areas, you're easier to hit, and you have to make opposed rolls to damage your opponent (or take a -4 to hit). I would suggest taking only Improved Grapple if you want to grapple, and to seriously reconsider being a Monk if you want to do more. Essentially, grappling is best left to those that can wear armor spikes and have a high BAB and can Rage if necessary - fighters and barbarians.

On Flying Kick: Probably not worth it unless your GM allows Pounce-type abilities to be used in conjunction with charge-boosting feats like Flying Kick. Otherwise, if you want to do damage, I suggest using Improved Trip and then Power Attacking your prone opponent. Flying Kick gives an average of 6.5 damage on a charge, which can be useful but isn't enough to have it a high priority.

[Azalin]

ON MULTICLASSING

Multiclassing is a delicate subject with Monks. First, there's the obvious PHB restrictions on Monk multiclassing (which is removed in OA). Second, the three best Monk abilities (Stun Attack, Immunity to Poison, and Spell Resistance) depend on class level, so unless you're playing with OA (and therefore the Stun variants) any non-Monk level lessens or slows your access to these key class features.

There are a few core non-spellcasting classes that appear tempting: Psychic Warrior, Fighter, and Rogue. With the difficulties in mind, playing a multiclass Monk can be rewarding. Rogue levels add Sneak Attack dice (useful with Expert Tactician and Stunning Attack). Fighter levels and Psychic Warrior levels add precious Feats. Just be sure that you understand the full implications of removing Monk levels: less Stun uses, less unarmed damage, less Flurry, etc.

An alternative that requires some forethought is to plan out your build, and then order your class progression appropriately. This basically means, take all non-Monk levels first so that you can multiclass into Monk at an appropriate point.

The Spellcaster classes that appeal the most to a multiclass Monk are Wizard and Sorceror, if only for the myriad of useful 1st level arcane spells available (Enlarge Person and Scribe Scroll are a great combo). Taking Wizard or Sorceror as a first class before going into Monk is a rough path, though: for the first few levels you'll probably be feeling the regret. Another way to score Enlarge Person is to be a Cleric with the Strength domain, but then you have to buy your scrolls (and divine Enlarge Person scrolls are going to suddenly become rare once your GM gets wind of this) or take the Scribe Scroll feat. Of course, a lenient DM will sidestep all this and allow you to purchase a Ring of Enlarge Person (1/day) for the book price of 1200gp.

Finally, on Prestige Classes. PrCs are useful for a monk that wishes to specialize in a niche (like a Weapon Master Monk, who specializes in Straight Melee, or a Ninja of the Crescent Moon, who specializes in Tactical Melee) or achieve broader ability in all niches (Shintao Monks) at the expense of comparitive straight-monk ability. From a minmax perspective there's little to say, as PrC choice for a monk is done with a specific vision in mind and not as de rigeur as with spellcasting PrCs. My only caution is to be fully aware of the loss of Spell Resistance capability.

Here's another quick note on Prestige Classes: if I haven't mentioned them in this guide, they probably stink (for core-based Monks). The Tattooed Monk gets special mention as almost but not really worth taking. Drunken Master is for flavor only, not minmax, but still almost a worth-while class. I just don't consider the extra damage from the improvised weapon to compare to the Improved Natural Attack benefits.

Special mention goes out to the Shou Disciples, Sacred Fists and the Shiba Protector. Shou Disciple is a great class for Monk/Fighter multiclassers and should definitely be taken if you're following that route. Sacred Fist works well as a Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist (search for my less-than-popular Sacred Fist build), and Shiba Protector is a one-level-dip PrC that gives WIS bonus to hit and damage, though the feat cost is very steep.

More interesting and certainly more metagamingly questionable is multiclassing INTO Monk, but only for 2 or 4 levels. Compared to dipping into Fighter for 2 levels, you get better saves, one more feat (the free Improved Unarmed), and one less BAB. You should do this early, though, as the available Monk bonus Feats are pretty restrictive and best used to qualify for later feats. Its not that bad a tradeoff, and allows ridiculous combos based on Monk2/Fighter2/PsychicWarrior2, like Paladin4/Monk2/Fighter2/Psychic Warrior2/SacredFist10, probably the most Feat-intensive Sacred Fist build possible (15 Feats of which 3 are spoken for). You can also consider Monk3 if you want the Still Mind ability.

When playing a monk, I prefer to design a prestige class that matches what I'm attempting accomplish. I consider the core Monk class a nice attempt but poor execution of what a core class should be - as it is, the final 10 levels of the Monk class might as well be a prestige class anyway, so replacing them with alternate abilities shouldn't present too much difficulty.

[Azalin]

ITEMS

This will only really deal with Monk-specific items. More general items (Ring of Sustenance, Boots of Striding and Springing) you should already be aware of.

The Amulet of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) makes the Amulet of Mighty Fists a laughingstock. I suggest a +1 Corrosive (from Arms and Equipment) Bane(constructs) Wounding GhostTouch Mettaline (from UnderDark) (un?)Holy Amulet. Combine this with Greater Magic Fang + Permanency. As strong as possible. Rar.

Use a Sparring Dummy of the Masters (from Arms and Equipment).

Monk's Belt. Most useful at lower levels.

Ki Straps (from Sword and Fist).

Gloves of Fearsome Grip (from Sword and Fist).

...

VOW OF POVERTY

The Vow of Poverty is a strong boost to low- to mid-level Monks. You'll enjoy a powerful AC bonus and entertaining resistances throughout. At levels 18+ and beyond, you'll be outgunned and outmaneuvered by every being you're facing.

You should know what you're getting into by taking the Vow of Poverty. Again, these won't come up until higher levels, but you need to be aware of them all the same. You cannot Fly. You cannot cause bodily injury to the more powerful demons and devils due to their requirement for Cold Iron or Silvered weapons (which is a terrible oversight as far as I'm concerned). You cannot really hope to injure many of the more powerful constructs. You'll always have a 50% miss chance against incorporeal undead. I suppose there are more, but these are the major concerns.

The benefits are pretty powerful. Damage reduction, insane AC bonuses, minor bonuses to various things, and the exalted feats. Great at mid levels, slightly deflating at level 18+.

Here's how I'd stage my exalted feats as a non-human:

4 Nymph's Kiss
6 Sanctified Natural Attack
8 Touch of Golden Ice
10 Sanctified Ki Strike
12 Holy Ki Strike
14 Exalted Spell Resistance
16 Fist of the Heavens
18 ?
20 ?

As you can tell, every one of these except Nymph's Kiss gives a direct benefit to combat. You should also consider taking the Vow of Nonviolence and possibly the Vow of Peace, since most everything I can think of that is immune to subdual damage is either undead or a construct, which you can use your regular attacks on anyway. The bonus +4 to Stun DC is pretty nice, and the Vow of Peace's bonus AC and weapon-shattering skin may just make your Vow of Poverty worth it.

I never actually take Touch of Golden Ice because its a pain having to roll for its effects on every hit, but the benefits are sound. I would take Vow of Nonviolence instead just based on avoiding the annoying mechanic of having to roll for the poison's effects on every hit.

Boost STR, (WIS and CON), and DEX with the attribute bonuses. I put WIS and CON together since it depends on your point spread as to what's best. Your AC should already be ridiculous, but there's little harm in making it even more so is there?

...

[Azalin]

SOME EXAMPLES

This section is a compilation of the builds that I have made and refined, and are almost exclusively OA. This is section is far from exhaustive! I only included it to show possible builds that illustrate what I hope is a useful, fun, effective design philosophy.

Please note that all builds are human unless stated otherwise. This will affect your beginning feat choices, but I'm sure you're smart and can figure it all out.

The Base
mean_liar's basic Monk architecture (PHB, MM, SaF/SaS)
Monk 9

Monk1 Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Attack*, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Improved Trip*, Improved Natural Attack
Monk9 Pain Touch
Monk12 Rapid Stunning

Notes: This build has a feat slot open at level 1 if human, and the Expert Tactician feat, if not acquired at level 3, should be acquired at some point in the Monk's career. Its too useful to not have. Pain Touch should is also a stressed feat for acquisition.

Core-Only Monk
core PHB, DMG, MM only
Monk 20

Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack), Dodge
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Mobility
Monk6 Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip*
Monk9 Spring Attack
Monk12 Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Monk15 Leadership
Monk18 Improved Initiative
Monk20 -

OPTION 1: In a core-only game, your choices are severely limited. Fight back by starting as a level 1 Wizard (Scribe Scroll) and making lots of Enlarge Person scrolls. You can toss in Mage Armor and a few others, but Enlarge Person is where the magic is. Alternatively, you can reconfigure the feats to allow a level of Cleric with Scribe Scroll instead, and use divine Enlarge Person scrolls of your own make if you have the Strength domain.

Notes: There aren't too many mechanically sound ways to build a core-only Monk. A Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Monk with magic gauntlets does more damage and has more hit points. Just so you know, the Power Attack is there to use against Prone opponents.

Final BAB: +15
Final Saves: +12

Tactician Monk
non-OA, non-FR build
Monk 20

Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack), Dodge
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Mobility
Monk6 Spring Attack, Improved Trip*
Monk9 Pain Touch
Monk12 Rapid Stunning
Monk15 Expert Tactician
Monk18 Improved Natural Attack
Monk20 -

Notes: By remaining mobile, this Monk attempts to disrupt the battlefield. Capable of entering tough-to-reach areas, he can deliver a very effective Stunning Attack to an important foe. Ideally this build would be accompanied by a Rogue (or some other Sneak Attacker), though any melee combatant would be aided by a Stunned/Nauseated opponent.

Final BAB: +15
Final Saves: +12

[Azalin]

Powerful Monk
non-Jotunbrud (non-FR), OA feats
Monk 20

Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Unbalancing Strike, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip*
Monk9 Pain Touch
Monk12 Knockdown
Monk15 Rapid Stunning
Monk18 Improved Initiative
Monk20 -
(Monk21 Dire Charge)

OPTION 1: Replace Rapid Stunning with Ability Focus (Unbalancing Strike)

Notes: This character can rapidly dominate combat against multiple humanoid opponents. I suggest acquiring magic items that can increase your effectiveness against non-humanoids and unstunnable opponents, as your Rapid Stunning/Pain Touch/Ability Focus combo should keep most humanoids reeling. An Amulet of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) with Disruptive, Ghost Touch, and Bane (Constructs) should be plenty.

Final BAB: +15
Final Saves: +12

Powerful Monk v2.0
Jotunbrud build
Monk 20

Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack), Jotunbrud
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip*
Monk9 Knockdown
Monk12 Pain Touch
Monk15 Rapid Stunning
Monk18 Improved Initiative
Monk20 -
(Monk21 Dire Charge)

OPTION : Swap acquisition of Pain Touch and Knockdown.

Notes: You can compare this build to the non-Jotunbrud monk to really see where it is different (though not necessarily better). Whereas v1 has Unbalancing Strike, v2 has Knockdown and +8 to Trips. What's nice is that v2 can use its Knockdown capabilities on just about any creature as opposed to just humanoids (which is the only type affected by Unbalancing Strike).

Final BAB: +15
Final Saves: +12

Skillful Monk
The Killer Combo
Monk 20

Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Death Blow, Improved Disarm*
Monk9 Rapid Stunning
Monk12 Pain Touch
Monk15 Freezing the Lifeblood
Monk18 Ability Focus (Freezing the Lifeblood)
Monk20 -

OPTION 1: Low STR, high DEX monks should rearrange feats to take Weapon Finesse instead of Ability Focus (Stunning AttacK)

OPTION 2: You can go Monk/Fighter (hopefully with OA Monk multiclassing rules) in order to get Freezing the Lifeblood at an earlier level.

Notes: The purpose of this monk build is NOT to inflict damage directly, but rather to facilitate and aid others, specifically the Fighters and Rogues by Stuns and paralysis.

Final BAB: +15
Final Saves: +12

Combat Master Monk
Monk 6/Shintao Monk 10/Henshin Mystic 4
(uses PHB, MM, OA, MH)

1 Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Fist*, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack), Unbalancing Strike
2 Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk3 Expert Tactician
6 Monk6 Deft Opportunist, Improved Trip*
7 Monk6/Shintao1 Dodge!
9 Monk6/Shintao3 Hold the Line, Combat Expertise!
10 Monk6/Shinato4 -
11 Monk6/Shintao5 Karmic Strike!
12 Monk6/Shintao5/Henshin1 Improved Natural Attack
15 Monk6/Shintao5/Henshin4 Rapid Stunning
17 Monk6/Shintao7/Henshin4 Freezing the Lifeblood!
18 Monk6/Shintao8/Henshin4 Pain Touch
19 Monk6/Shintao9/Henshin4 Falling Star Strike!
20 Monk6/Shintao10/Henshin4 -

OPTION #1: The Shintao feats after level 17 are just guesswork - you may find better options.

OPTION #2: Rapid Stunning and Pain Touch can easily be swapped. The idea is to Stun your opponents as they attack you, but if you find the opposition is more dangerous and less numerous, Pain Touch would be a better idea.

Notes: This build does it all. You've got Deft Opportunist + Combat Expertise + Karmic Strike (and Hold the Line to boot) and Unbalancing Strike + Expert Tactician, which are great feat combos. Go and conquer, young one.

Final BAB: +13
Final Saves: +17

Draconic Monk
Human
Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Fighter 1/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8
w/ OA Monk feat options

1 Monk Mnk1 Imp Unarmed*, Stunning Attack*, Dodge, Alertness
2 Monk Mnk2 Kiai Shout*
3 Monk Mnk3 Weapon Focus (unarmed)
4 Monk Mnk4 -
5 Monk Mnk5 -
6 Monk Mnk6 Fists of Iron*, Improved Natural Attack
7 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi1 -
8 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi2 Power Attack*
9 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi3 Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
10 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi4 Combat Reflexes*
11 ShouDisciple Mnk6/ShDi5 -
12 Fighter Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1 Improved Sunder*, Eagle Claw Attack, (Empty Hand)
13 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM1 -
14 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM2 -
15 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM3 Expert Tactician
16 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM4 (imp die step)
17 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM5 -
18 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM6 Unbalancing Strike
19 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM7 -
20 InitiateofDraconicMysteries Mnk6/ShDi5/Fgt1/IDM8 (imp die step)

Notes: Use an Amulet of Natural Attacks obviously, with at least the Keen effect to get the most out of your x3 crit multiplier. At level 20 you do 6d12 with an unarmed attack and have full Flurry capabilities from level 11 on.

BAB: +16
Saves: +17/+15/+12

[Azalin]

Half-Ogre Monk
Powerful Monk v3.0
Monk20

Monk1 Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Attack*, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip*
Monk9 Pain Touch
Monk12 Knockdown
Monk15 Rapid Stunning
Monk18 Improved Initiative
Monk20 -
(Monk21 Dire Charge)

Notes: Not much different here than in the Powerful Monk build, to be honest. Combining a Large Monk with Improved Natural Attack gives you 6d8 damage at 20th level.

Final BAB: +15
Final Saves: +12

War Hulk Monk
The Ultimate Brawler
HalfOgre Monk8/ShintaoMonk3/WarHulk4/Barbarian4

1 HalfOgre Power Attack
2 Monk1 Imp Unarmed, Stunning Fist
3 Monk2 Combat Reflexes, Cleave
6 Monk5 Expert Tactician
7 Monk6 Improved Trip
8 Monk6/ShintaoMonk1 Unbalancing Strike!
9 Monk6/ShintaoMonk2 Knockdown
10 Monk6/ShintaoMonk3 Rapid Stunning
12 Monk8/ShintaoMonk3 Mantis Leap
15 Monk8/ShintaoMonk3/WarHulk3 Great Cleave
16 Monk8/ShintaoMonk3/WarHulk4 -
(now your character ditches his old alignment, becoming at least non-lawful. You give in to your Ogre nature, no longer denied)
18 Monk8/ShintaoMonk3/WarHulk4/Barbarian2 Pain Touch (haha!)
20 Monk8/ShintaoMonk3/WarHulk4/Barbarian4 -

Notes: Isn't this totally sick? Whip this build out for those "bring anything to the table, anything at all" sessions. Otherwise, consider this for illustration purposes only for any level past 12. That being said, check this out: your strikes hit 3 adjacent squares with Knockdown and you've got Great Cleave, all with a full Flurry. Yikes.

Final BAB: +12
Final Saves: +19/+13/+13

...

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SpiritGlyph:
Interesting guide. Tell me, what would you say is the best way for a monk (any build) to take down a heavily-armored, high fort saves fighter?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tough to say. How high is the FORT save? For discussion, we'll say that the Fighter's CON is the same as a Monk's WIS, so those bonuses cancel. FORT save escalates at 2 + CON + 1/2 class level, and the Stun DC is 10 + WIS + 1/2 class level, so at a flat rate the Fighter will be Stunned 40% of the time. Also, Ki Straps (from SaF) are cheap and worth the investment.

Trading blows is a really bad idea.

The standard answer is that a Monk with Spring Attack can theoretically dance around and harry the Fighter, Stunning him on occasion. Its pretty dicey but it can be done and its the 'standard' response.

Freezing the Lifeblood and Falling Star Strikes will heavily place favor on the Monk, as a successful application of either technique will severely hamper the Fighter, by either Blindness or Helplessness (i.e., death).

In both cases, utilizing Spring Attack gives the best results and I believe that the Tactician Monk build would work wonders.

If they're weapon-reliant, a grappling monk can get in close with them. Medium+ sized weapons cannot be used in grapple combat so that's a nice feature. Just be wary that the Fighter probably has a higher BAB and STR than you, so Grappling can be dangerous without the right feats/abilities (Earth dragon wrestling from Quintessential Monk or the FR feat Jotunbrud).

Trip attacks could be attempted for extremely high-AC opponents like duelists and the like, but this is a problem because of the Trip relying only on STR or DEX, and not BAB.

Grappling Block is great against almost all specific weapon-based Fighters, since you can use your Sai to Disarm with a bonus, and in addition can grapple with a Sai as well and not suffer any restrictions on its use. The Fighter probably will whip out a dagger or something... Disarm that too. Force him to either make grapple checks to escape or hurt you.

The Fighter is really just going to try and beat you down. In a pinch you don't need any weapons and you aren't in armor, so his options are limited. Improved Trips are alright and there's little to do to avoid them except Prone Fighting, but thats its only use so you probably have other Feats (but it might be worth it for arena fighting). If he grapples you, either he's dumb and doesn't know what he's doing or he's going to crush you because he knows EXACTLY what he's doing. A kukri-wielding Weapon Master will butcher a Monk in grapple combat.

Past that, he'll shoot you with a bow (use Hide, run away, or grapple against such a foe) or hack at you with an axe. His options aren't too glamorous or sensational, but they don't need to be since they're effective.

Basically, the Fighter has BAB on you. Neutralizing this brings him down to an easily-beatable level, and the method of neutralization doesn't matter so long as its effective. Stuns prevent attacks = no BAB. Spring Attack with a HIGH move = no chance to retaliate, so no BAB. Grapple combat against a Medium-sized weapon weilder = he has opposed rolls to hit, reducing BAB effectiveness. Successful Trips means less attacks against you, so effectively less BAB to bear.

Your BEST bet to to take advantage of your skills, though. Hide and Move Silently and your enhanced Speed mean that you control all aspects of combat: you can choose when to engage and when to disengage, theoretically meaning that the worst result is a draw.

...

Last updated: 4 Feb 04

ADDITIONAL KEYWORDS: mean liar mean_liar FAQ minmax min/max grappling freeze combo half ogre